Slog - did you feel that the "It's not me, it's my OCD" approach reduced your obsessions over the long run? I'm curious about this, because this kind of approach only ever gave me temporary reassurance, but never really made the obsessions significantly decrease.
Hello BT, I'm ok thanks, have CBT tomorrow which is always good. Didn't go into town Sunday but did on Monday instead. Was nice :-). Still spiking occasionally but far less shaken than I was. How are you?
And Mike when I first found out about OCD, it all seemed very vague. I had months to wait until CBT and I used to doubt I even had a disorder. It wasn't until I read Brain Lock that everything started to make sense, the description of what OCD actually is physically was such a massive help to me. So I guess it did reduce my obsessions. The four steps are great in times of absolute panic when I'm too shaky to attempt to conventionally reduce anxiety. I can't give a definite answer as to it's long term effectiveness but I can vouch for the book as it's now the only one I go back to now and again. I'm going to sell my copy of "Imp of the Mind" or give it to a sufferer on these forums because though I know it's helped some, I absolutely hated it. It made me uncomfortable.
I think with OCD books, and treatment for that matter, its a case of each to their own,
How are you Mike?
Slog
I'm ok, thanks. Yes it seems that the treatment that works best really depends on the severity of the OCD, and how well the patient understands his/her OCD. For someone who has never received proper treatment and doesn't know what's wrong with him/her, I could see how learning about the four R's could be very helpful. But once one has a good grasp on how OCD works and how best to deal with it, I think it's best to steer clear of any reassurance. At least for me.
Mike, I am confused still. In a previous message about the Four Steps approach you stated: "But I think once one gets to a good understanding of their own OCD, CBT is way better."
In your latest reply to me you said: "There are cognitive and behavioral aspects to the four R's, I just said that it's different than traditional cognitive therapy and ERP."
Schwartz clearly uses CBT, it just differs from Foa and Grayson's.
BT - "CBT" in the context of OCD typically refers to modern cognitive therapy and ERP. Schwartz's approach is distinct from both of these, and so although it can be considered a cognitive-behavioral approach, it is not what experts mean when they say "CBT", which has a very specific connotation.
Trudy has had a lot to deal with recently, Mike, but I’m sure she’ll find the details when she has the time.
I’m not sure you fully appreciate Schwartz’s methods. He does advocate ERP. The only difference being, his belief that once we expose ourselves to a feared contaminant/situation we should try to occupy our minds with a pleasurable activity. He is still saying to resist the compulsion (response prevention).
The main difference between his therapy and some other experts is distraction opposed to focusing.. Also, he encourages us to say it’s our OCD at the time of an intrusive thought, whereas some others regard this as reassurance.
Some people, couldn’t cope without that little reassurance, Mike. Some can. Each to her or his own.
I know of people who could not deal with their obsessions by focusing on them, their fear did not subside. By distracting themselves they discovered the fear was much less afterwards.
BT -
Is response prevention explicitly stated in the four R's? I don't remember seeing that, although maybe it's implicit. I also don't remember seeing anything about exposure.
As for the "it's not me, it's OCD" mantra, I think that would be a major problem if the individual obsesses about whether or not the thoughts/fears/anxiety are OCD or not. I have done this at times in the past, and reassuring myself that it was just the OCD (and getting reassurance from others) did nothing to quell my anxieties, because it was a compulsion in of itself. I only got better once I stopped doing this. In this case, one should refuse to give in to the compulsion and learn to live with the possibility that it might not be OCD, no matter how anxious it makes them.
If the focus of the obsessions is not whether or not something is due to OCD, I can see how it could be helpful.
Hi everyone... To gently return to the original discussion on this thread, wow, I cant believe it has got to a hundred! Never mind, well anyway, my catheter is still working fine. I'll be back on the threads in the next day or so, or maybe tonight if I'm up to it.
Feeling pretty tired right now with sinus pain! It gives me major toothache, and if there's one thing I cannot cope with, it is toothache!
Wannabe
Mike, I wish members who responded so well to Schwartz’s methods could reply to you. Some made incredible progress. Many have moved on, because their OCD improved so much.
I have a close friend who has told me she would be dead now, but for a certain amount of reassurance. Just because you improved by avoiding all reassurance, it doesn’t mean everybody can. Some only cope with the knowledge that their intrusive thoughts are the OCD, and Jeffrey Schwartz’s ‘mantra’ has kept them sane - and alive.
You obviously have not read Brain Lock, Mike. I suggest you do, if you wish to discuss Jeffrey Schwartz’s methods, because you don’t seem to have a very good grasp of what his therapy entails.
Trudy gave a link on the previous page of this thread. Here, Dr Schwartz states, “Our treatment differs from classic exposure and response prevention in one important way: We have developed a four-step method that enhances your ability to do exposure and response prevention on your own without a therapist being present.”
Sorry, Wannabe, Only just seen your message while I was writing to Mike.
I am also sorry that your thread has drifted somewhat. How are you feeling now about the catheter, is it causing you to obsess as badly?
Sorry to hear about your sinus pain, are you receiving any treatment for it?
Hi everyone, Hi BT, no problem. To be honest, I'm getting used to the catheter now, but would hope to get it out soon. It is okay as long as I wash it at point of entry, and I cope with that, just. It is wierd that it only happens at this time of year. The OCD is holding its' own, I'm still waiting to start CBT, but that shouldn't be long now, I hope. The sinus pain has been a bit of a nightmare, cos I've took soluble aspirin for it, and that makes me sweat a lot. It is amazing that one thing to solve another thing, can create its' own problems on top. It's all good stuff isn't it?
But I'm coping, and that is the main thing. I'll post on here again tonight. Thank you ever so much,
Wannabe
BT - I'm asking questions about the four R's BECAUSE I don't know much about Schwartz's methods. I don't wish to read the whole book; there are people here, like yourself, that are able to quickly answer the questions I have.
As for the passage you quoted, I'm confused because 1) regular ERP has the goal of the patient eventually not needing the therapist as well, and 2) I didn't see any exposure techniques in the descriptions of the four R's.
I'm asking questions about the four R's BECAUSE I don't know much about Schwartz's methods.We gathered that given your extensive post on Sunday.
Hi everyone. This damn OCD don't half cause us some problems don't it. Brain Lock is a book I'm gonna get hold of at some point. Mind you, I've got Imp of the mind which I haven't read yet, I'm not even sure I know where it is. It has been put somewhere safe, I know. Anyway, thank you for your input everyone, I'm off to try and answer a few threads...
Wannabe
Mike,
Whilst everyone’s views and opinions are most welcome on this forum, what we shouldn’t be doing is posting information or facts unless we know that they are correct.
In many of your posts over the past couple of months you have made statements that have given the impression that you are stating facts when in reality the information you have presented has been incorrect and so misleading, especially to those who are newly diagnosed with OCD.
I don’t know whether you’re deliberately posting this incorrect information for effect or whether you genuinely are confused or simply don’t understand what the professionals have said or written especially with regards to the various therapies, either way you’ve got to appreciate that you simply cannot continue to present information or make statements that are not true.
I'm proud of our forum and the way that we do our best to help and support each other, but giving out incorrect information is neither help nor is it support and it can do a lot of damage.
Trudy
Hello everyone
I find myself in a dilemma this morning. I made a decison two or three weeks ago that the forum had become too stressful for me to continue posting publicly but that I would continue as an observer to gain continuing knowledge about OCD to enable me to keep up to date in my awareness work.
Most of the time this forum can be a very helpful and supportive place but at times individuls can come on and it can feel very threatening. I recall a lovely young man who used to post under the name of Parvez Choudrey who left about two years ago because he said he felt as though he had been "mauled" and others have left for the same sort of reason. I too have recently felt emotionally savaged, I attempted to resolve this by private messaging without success and whilst I realise that my emotions have been excessive and that I should have been able to rationalise them and accept that I was reacting too subjectively such is the nature of OCD that we cannot place ourselves in the constant line of fire without feeling the pain.
The moderators do an excellent job but there is a thin line between trying to help others by giving out useful information and shouting them down in a dogmatic and bullying fashion, albeit without even realising the posts are coming across in this way. The internet is a secure place where we can sit comfortably in private and express our opinions and emotions in personal safety. If we stood up and expressed our views at a public event the audience would be far too embarrassed to shout us down even if they totally disagreed and thought we were talking rubbish and in my opinion the same rules should apply on this forum. Every contributor should be repected as an equal and if opinions differ it should be sufficient just to express them once or twice and not keep ramming it home, we are all intelligent people but at present there is no single cure for OCD and everyone's experiences will be different, we should be learning by sharing and not by forcing our opinions onto others.
I am afraid that the above is a very long winded way of saying that I have noticed Trudy and other members trying to resolve this problem discreetly, with some success, but I sense from recent posts that Trudy is becoming increasingly frustrated and I do not want her, or indeed anyone else to get hurt. Trudy gives constantly and takes very little from this forum and in my experience of OCD frustration can rapidly turn into stress, aggravate intrusive thoughts and then if it cannot find a therapeutic outlet depression can set in.
@Trudy and Tess -
first: thanks go out to the both of you for those posts just above - and I am very glad that you, Tess, posted again in the open here.
I want to add that I honestly did not know that this thread has taken the turn that it actually has - and I will diligently read it in full before making up my mind completely.
For the moment, I can only say that I am in two minds about Mike's contributions. On the one hand, I don't doubt his sincerity and integrity, in his attempts to give advice to others. On the other, I find his manner of phrasing too overbearing (is that the correct expression?) - in such a way that for his readership, there seems to be not much space for different views, doubts, gray areas, if at all - and God knows there's a gigantic abundance of those in OCD. What was successful for Mike isn't necessarily succesful for others here.
I tried to make this clear a couple of weeks ago, I then wrote that in therapy, rules are not set in stone, nor did Moses bring them down on clay tablets on his way down from Mount Horeb. Each and every OCD patient is different, and has her/his own and exclusive personality and set of symptoms. All of us here must respect that, and express ourselves accordingly. Also bear in mind that we don't see each other face to face, and that includes the body language that comes with that. That is another reason for being modest and cautious in our posts.
That's it for now, and thanks again to everyone who made the effort to clarify her/his point of view on these matters.
As ever, best from Cuthbert.
Hi Tess and Cuthbert,
I totally agree with you and yes I am getting frustrated.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy reading a thread with multiple views and opinions as we can always learn from the experiences of others, in the past we've had some lively discussions in which we've all learned something new. But we really must draw the line when people are giving out incorrect facts. There have been many totally incorrect explanations and definitions of various subjects such as therapies and not just on this thread.
Opinions and views can differ but facts are precisely that - facts and so can't be changed or adapted to suit your own theories or ideas.
Cuthbert I agree with the following
I then wrote that in therapy, rules are not set in stone, nor did Moses bring them down on clay tablets on his way down from Mount Horeb. Each and every OCD patient is different, and has her/his own and exclusive personality and set of symptoms.different people respond to different treatments there isn't one treatment that suits all.
And thank you Trudy -
you picked up my metaphor exactly the way I hoped it would be understood. And if there were a panacea that would be valid for all of us, our worlds would look differently. But alas, there isn't. In the words of philosopher of science Sir Karl R. Popper: progress is piecemeal work.
Trudy -
Which statements have I made that you think were stated as facts, but are in fact untrue?
On edit: I'm also a little confused as to why, if someone is mistaken about something, that should cause so much of an issue. I don't believe that I've factually stated anything that's incorrect, but even if I did, or anyone else for that matter, I would think the appropriate response would be simply to point out the person's mistake. I see no reason why negative emotions should result from someone simply being mistaken.
Hi All,
I have found this thread quite difficult to deal with, I posted on it a while ago.
I have had lots of CBT, I own all the books going and yet am still struggling. I have felt even more a failure as time has gone on with this thread as I am one of the ones that hasn't gained much success from following the different methods offered by these books and long periods of CBT.
I am sorry to Wannabee who started this thread as it has gone completely off track and I hope you are doing ok.
I hope we can all celebrate other peoples success in controlling their OCD but also be mindful of all the other people who havn't been as successful and are still suffering a lot.
I have been told by my psychiatrist and my CBT therapist that I have tried as hard as possible but am unfortunately one of those sufferers that has more difficultly in gaining conrol over my OCD than others and that it is not through not trying hard enough etc.
Lets all stick together and help each other.
Bridget
I have come on here this evening somewhat nervously, hoping that my post would not have stirred up a furore, and I'm pleased to see that it hasn't and it has actually prompted some forthright discussion.
Wannabe, I am so sorry that your thread has gone pair shaped but it is not just this thread, there have been others in the recent past in which Mike's enthusiasm for explaining what has helped him personally and for promoting ERP in such an overbearing manner (and yes Cuthbert this word suits the situation perfectly) has had negative effects on others. Bridget has hit the nail on the head and there are very many others like her, and indeed myself, who do not respond in the text book way to repeated exposure and who are perfectly well able to accept uncertainty in all its forms but this has made no difference to our OCD. For us, with so called treatment resistant OCD, I believe it is cruel to suggest we haven't exposed ourselves to the source of our fear for long enough for the fear to recede because we know we have and it hasn't had the desired result. The last thing we need on top of this is for others to aggravate our distress and sense of failure. It is not the sufferer who is the failure, it is the medical profession who haven't yet managed to come up with a solution and we need to nurture our self esteem and believe in ourselves.
Finally I echo the general view that we need to put our differences behind us and do our best to support each other.
Hi everyone, Welcome back Tess, good to hear from you again. It has been a bit rocky on here of late, making me have a break too. But ticking over again now...
Wannabe
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