OCD Action

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wannabefree
Member

Hi Mike, Trudy and Bridget... Thank you for your replies... I'm really scared with the obtrusive thoughts still... I've been reading about exposure therapy today, and it scares the life out of me... It seems dangerous to me... I can't put people at risk of harm, I just can't...
I don't know how I'm gonna cope with all this... I could wait until my CBT, but need to be doing something now... I'm off to have a bath in a minute, then I'll come back on here after... I struggled to eat my evening meal cos my nerves are so shot...
Wannabe

Wed Jan 25 2012 20:52:14 #
Truddles
Member

But you've already started doing exposure therapy haven't you? The catheter really scares you and yet you've had to stick with it - well you can't exactly avoid it can you? And gradually you're becoming more used to it and with regards to that the anxiety is slowly reducing.

I can't put people at risk of harm, I just can't..
You won't. We have an overinflated sense of responsibility and feel that all our actions have an impact on others. They don't.
In your heart of hearts you know that you're not going to harm anyone, you just have to have faith in yourself.

Wed Jan 25 2012 21:15:59 #
Mike
Member

wannabe - what are your specific fears?

Wed Jan 25 2012 21:45:08 #
wannabefree
Member

Hi again... Been on the phone! Yes, it appears thatI probably cannot put others at risk, but believing it is another thing, but I'm getting there... My main fears are touching the floor, shoes, anything that has been on the floor, I worry about toilet doors, though not as much as I used to, I worry about clothes touching the toilet and getting 'contaminated', stuff like that... It's not easy is it?
Wannabe

Wed Jan 25 2012 23:17:02 #
Mike
Member

Ok, so you can accept uncertainty on any topic EXCEPT getting contaminated. For example, you can accept the possibility that:
1) you will kill your closest friend
2) you will molest a child
3) you will one day realize that you're a homosexual
4) all of your loved ones will be killed in a car crash
5) you will fall and break your neck and become a quadriplegic,

etc., etc., etc.,

but you CANNOT accept the possibility that:

1) you will somehow get contaminated by something

*Clearly your goal should be to learn to accept the possibility that you might get contaminated, just like you accept all the other horrible possibilities. To do this requires ERP, however, and unless you have a lot of experience with it, it might be too dangerous to try on your own.

Wed Jan 25 2012 23:45:05 #
chloe
Member

Hi Wannabe,

I hope you are feeling better today.

My biggest fear is that something bad will happen to family and loved ones.
During my CBT I said exactly the same thing - that I couldn't take a chance of putting people at risk of harm.
In my head I was responsible for keeping them alive and well and unless I carried out certain rituals it would be my fault if something happened to them.

I did exposure therapy and it was absolutely awful BUT it worked for me.
Iam still plagued with intrusive thoughts and self doubt but I have the knowledge to try and deal with them as I now understand how OCD works. [Having said that, if I didn't have the support of all of you wonderful people, it might be a different story. Thankyou.]

I would never have managed or even attempted exposure therapy with out the guidance of a therapist and I agree with Mike that it could be too dangerous to try on your own.
I'm not saying you shouldn't but I'm a bit worried because it is so frightening to experience.

Well done on dealing with the catheter and as Trudy says try to think of it as a challenge rather than a setback. Thats what I try to do, which I know is a lot easier said than done!

How I despise this dreadful illness which causes so much misery.

Speak soon Wannabe

Love Chloe X

Thu Jan 26 2012 9:01:30 #
wannabefree
Member

Hi Chloe, thank you for your kind words, and you too Mike, to be honest I'm scared of all those too! I really have got it bad! I'm inclined to agree that I may have to put thingsd on hold until my CBT starts... I'm very, very overloaded with it all... I'm supposed to have had a nurse visit me at home about my catheter, but I guess they are very busy... I'm finding the cbt I try to do, absolutely terrifying... I honestly believe that if my clothing gets contaminated, it stays contaminated, and the anxiety takes days of almost unbearablness until it dies away, if ever... The whole thing is making me very frightened... I'll tackle it when the timew comes, but until then I feel like putting the whole thing down for a while...
WWannabe

Thu Jan 26 2012 16:43:20 #
Wombat140
Member

Don't know if you literally mean you believe it, or not, but if so you might like to know that germs (if it's germs you worry about) don't survive more than a few days outside the body, less if it's dry. Just a fact. I read a good detective story that relied on that - I think it was called "Leonora".

Fri Jan 27 2012 19:55:22 #
wannabefree
Member

Hi there... Yes, it is mainly germs, but I worry about getting anything on my hands, sometimes absolutely anything triggers it, and I absolutely hate it... I try to take the facts on board, but my head still won't stop causing me to give in to my compulsions... The trouble is that the people who make that vanish stuff have now come out with an 'Extra hygiene' version, scaring us into using antibacterials in our washing machines now... We can't win, we're being bombarded by this negative information by the advertisers, which scares the hell out of me... And yet I've worked in some pretty mucky places in my time... But now I'm just trying to allow myself to survive against it... It isn't easy is it?
Wannabe

Fri Jan 27 2012 20:17:47 #
Wombat140
Member

The trouble is that the people who make that vanish stuff have now come out with an 'Extra hygiene' version, scaring us into using antibacterials in our washing machines now...

Beneath contempt. Nobody ever caught anything from their washing before this came on the market. No, it isn't easy and I wish you the best of luck. Keep fighting. You'll get there.

Fri Jan 27 2012 20:59:07 #
wannabefree
Member

Hi again, yes, I don't know how the advertisers get away with it... There's so much in the media now, and like you say, it is definitely beneath contempt... I wish the industry was regulated in some way... A lot of the food hygiene stuff as well... Taken out of all proportion, I guess to try and stop the trip and fall solicitors... Everyone wants to sue someone, get a meal for free, get a holiday for nothing, but they don't realise that to get any compensation you need to be virtually dead, and it is really the solicitors who 'win'. I try to apply this logic, but I find it all so difficult... It ain't easy is it? Thanks ever so much for your reply... Here's hoping you are okay...
Wannabe

Fri Jan 27 2012 21:16:31 #
wannabefree
Member

I've had a lousy day today... I got up feeling awful... I've got a cold, and I'm not sure my catheter is still working... I've had it in nine days now, and am getting fed up with it... I worry, worry, worry almost non-stop... I wish life was easier... My OCD has been terrible this last few days... I sometimes want to stop fighting... Then other times I pick up a bit... I wish I valued myself more, but I don't... Without a job I feel useless... Sorry for the moan, but I've just had a ropey day...
Wannabe

Tue Jan 31 2012 21:46:55 #
Citaloman
Member

I will say a few words for you tonight mate as I do for everyone on here to my idea of what GOD is.

Tue Jan 31 2012 22:00:53 #
wannabefree
Member

Hi Citaloman... I think maybe I should too... It isn't easy is it?

Tue Jan 31 2012 22:05:05 #
Mike
Member

wannabe - just so I'm clear, what are your specific fears about harming others? How would this happen?

Tue Jan 31 2012 22:23:02 #
wannabefree
Member

I don't know... It is all irrational... I believe I contaminate the world... I try to wash my hands much too much...

Tue Jan 31 2012 22:26:27 #
Mike
Member

Contaminate with what, exactly? Isn't everyone else equally able to contaminate others?

Wed Feb 1 2012 1:19:04 #
wannabefree
Member

Hi Mike, good question... I think it is just the thoughts... That is what drives it all... I feel as though I daren't take the risk, and yet, when I think about it logically, there isn't really anything there... It is just my imagination... My very powerful imagination catastrophising the slightest little thing... I wish to goodness that I didn't have this problem, it really pulls me down... If I could just 'snap out of it', I would, but I can't... So I just have to plod on... I guess we all do... I'm a compulsive worrier... Always have been... For as long as I can remember... The OCD simply focusses on the little things that trouble me, and probably everyone else as well, and makes me not want to take the risk... I just don't have the effort to argue with the thoughts, cos of course that doesn't work. In fact none of the ordinary comforts work with OCD, which is a cruel irony... OCD is a cruel bully, for which normal cures don't work, we have to try and make it worse to make it better... Which is petrifying... All good stuff I suppose...
Wannabe

Wed Feb 1 2012 17:24:06 #
chloe
Member

Hi Wannabe

I do hope that you start feeling much better soon. We are all with you.

Love Chloe X

Wed Feb 1 2012 18:06:41 #
BT
Member

Wannabe, I hope you are doing better than you were.

I didn’t realise that you have had so many other obsessions that you have conquered. I haven’t overcome my worries that I’ll molest a child, but mercifully I don’t have contamination fears. Still battling with my driving worries, but I‘ve never worried I might be gay.

Thu Feb 2 2012 15:45:44 #
Mike
Member

Wannabe-

So I would say your goal should be to learn how to live with the possibility that you might harm someone, just as everyone else does. Everyone lives with the possibility that they could harm or contaminate someone every day; the only difference between you and these people is that you can't live with that possibility, while they can. The possibility of contaminating other people through some unknown means, with absolutely no evidence, doesn't scare people without OCD because the odds are so low that they can tolerate the possibility. This is where you should try to get to with CBT.

Thu Feb 2 2012 17:48:43 #
BT
Member

Wannabe, I’ve been wondering if I misunderstood one of Mike’s messages to you. If that’s the case I’m very sorry. When he mentioned that you can accept the uncertainty of molesting a child, killing your closest friend, realising you might be homosexual etc, I assumed these were obsessions you have experienced but are now able to deal with. He was possibly just using them as examples, although this puzzles me somewhat.

I don’t believe that everyone considers the possibility they might molest a child etc. We have discussed this in a local OCD group I attend and most of us have specific fears. The obsessions of others often do not enter our minds.

For example, I have never even considered the possibility of harming anyone through contamination. Mike, your list puzzles me (although maybe I was right with my first assumption and Wannabe has conquered many old obsessions).

Fri Feb 3 2012 12:56:06 #
Mike
Member

BT -

I used those examples because they are very scary possibilities that wannabe does NOT obsess about. It was to illustrate that he can live with the possibility of all these horrible things, EXCEPT for the possibility of harming others. This provides some perspective into how OCD works, and how the OCD fear is inconsistent and illogical with respect to how the OCD sufferer's brain approaches everything else that's scary int he world.

Fri Feb 3 2012 20:21:00 #
Mike
Member

Since he can live with the possibility of all those other horrible things (as everyone without OCD can), the goal is to learn how to live with the possibility that he might hurt someone (again, as everyone without OCD can). Because when it comes down to it, no one can predict the future, and there is no way for him to prove that he'll never hurt or contaminate anyone. That's why the compulsions are useless. They are attempts to prove something that is unprovable. This is why exposure to the feared consequence combined with ritual prevention is the most effective way to achieve the acceptance of uncertainty.

Fri Feb 3 2012 20:24:20 #
BT
Member

Mike, our views of the workings of the obsessional mind differ greatly!

Sat Feb 4 2012 14:05:44 #
Mike
Member

BT - What is your take?

Sat Feb 4 2012 22:22:38 #
BT
Member

I believe that, although some of us are perennial worriers, many find their obsessions are incredibly selective and often random. I realise some will be able to link an obsession to a particular experience, or concern, but many will not.

The way you listed things that Wannabe manages not to worry about, makes it sound as if you believe we each, at some point, consider such possibilities as losing control and molesting a child or realising we are homosexual, but accept the chances are remote and so dismiss the thoughts. For most, even with OCD, such things do not enter their minds. I do fear I could molest a child, that’s my obsession, but the thought has never crossed my mind that I might cause someone to suffer food poisoning, or worse, due to a lack of care over hygiene. It’s not a case of my consciously mulling it over and then dismissing it as so unlikely it‘s not worth my energy pursuing it further.

In the group I attend, people often have great difficulty empathising with another’s obsession, simply because it appears so alien to them.

You have spoken about Wannabe’s ability to accept uncertainty on any topic (apart from contamination). Obviously, I cannot speak for Wannabe, but I am assuming you would apply the same logic to each of us. A close friend of mine, who has contamination fears, would not accept he has the ‘ability to accept uncertainty’ when it comes to the possibility of molesting a child. Because he doesn‘t experience any uncertainty in the first place. I realise you could state that no one can be 100 per cent sure of anything, but some people do actually feel completely confident about certain things. For others, the prospect of certain eventualities just doesn’t concern them. Why our brains latch on to specific obsessions, will, in the main, remain a mystery.

One other point, I have friends who fear certain contaminants which they know full well will not harm them. These obsessions are particularly difficult to fathom, and harder to treat than those where a fear of harm is involved. Few people I have met with such problems have been able to come up with any logical explanation for their obsessions.

Sun Feb 5 2012 12:58:42 #
wannabefree
Member

Hi everyone... Been struggling with worst cold I've ever had... Catheter is still functioning okay, I'm coping with it... Last night was hell. Had a really bad headache that stopped me sleeping properly, It may be the weather, but nearly everyone I know is suffering with coughs and colds at the moment. The snow looks beautiful, when I stand indoors at the window... I worry about pavements in the snow, things like dog poo worry me, I don't want to get anything in the house... But it does make things look white and clean, which is a good thing... More later...
Wannabe

Sun Feb 5 2012 18:26:36 #
Mike
Member

I believe that, although some of us are perennial worriers, many find their obsessions are incredibly selective and often random. I realise some will be able to link an obsession to a particular experience, or concern, but many will not.

I agree.

The way you listed things that Wannabe manages not to worry about, makes it sound as if you believe we each, at some point, consider such possibilities as losing control and molesting a child or realising we are homosexual, but accept the chances are remote and so dismiss the thoughts.
For most, even with OCD, such things do not enter their minds. I do fear I could molest a child, that’s my obsession, but the thought has never crossed my mind that I might cause someone to suffer food poisoning, or worse, due to a lack of care over hygiene. It’s not a case of my consciously mulling it over and then dismissing it as so unlikely it‘s not worth my energy pursuing it further.

No, I do not mean to imply that we consider the possibilities, only that we can live with the possibilities without experiencing anxiety.

You have spoken about Wannabe’s ability to accept uncertainty on any topic (apart from contamination). Obviously, I cannot speak for Wannabe, but I am assuming you would apply the same logic to each of us. A close friend of mine, who has contamination fears, would not accept he has the ‘ability to accept uncertainty’ when it comes to the possibility of molesting a child. Because he doesn‘t experience any uncertainty in the first place. I realise you could state that no one can be 100 per cent sure of anything, but some people do actually feel completely confident about certain things. For others, the prospect of certain eventualities just doesn’t concern them. Why our brains latch on to specific obsessions, will, in the main, remain a mystery.

He may feel confident, but he cannot be certain. There is no way to be certain that any particular thing won't happen in the future. I could never prove that I will not become gay, molest a child, become a sinner, kill my best friend, die tomorrow on the highway, etc. I have no choice but to admit that all of these are possible. Yet I have no anxiety about them, which shows that I can live with these possibilities, or in other words, I can live with the uncertainty. And yes, it's partly because the chances are so slim. But for people with OCD, it doesn't matter how slim the chances are. Just the sheer possibility of their feared consequence is unacceptable.

One other point, I have friends who fear certain contaminants which they know full well will not harm them. These obsessions are particularly difficult to fathom, and harder to treat than those where a fear of harm is involved. Few people I have met with such problems have been able to come up with any logical explanation for their obsessions.

In this case, I think the best way to treat that would be to do imaginal exposure, setting up a scenario in which the contaminants did hurt them, and go through in very fine detail exactly what their life would be like after they were contaminated. How hurt would they be, would they end up in the hospital, would they die, how badly this would affect their life, etc. Making a script playing this over and over would probably be the most effective treatment.

Mon Feb 6 2012 1:56:41 #
BT
Member

You clarified my query well with: “No, I do not mean to imply that we consider the possibilities, only that we can live with the possibilities without experiencing anxiety.”

Surely, there lies the difference? So many things could be potentially harmful, but often we just don’t consider the possibilities.

I still feel that some of the things you listed, most of us can say, with certainty, we will never do. For instance, without suffering some form of brain damage, I think most people can be assured they won’t suddenly attack and kill a friend. I think most straight men can say 100 per cent they won’t suddenly become gay! The same can be said for most people when it comes to molesting a child. You are born gay/paedophile etc, you don’t suddenly change. A car accident, of course, is very different and yet most give little thought to the possibility.

You wrote: “…Yet I have no anxiety about them, which shows that I can live with these possibilities, or in other words, I can live with the uncertainty. And yes, it's partly because the chances are so slim. But for people with OCD, it doesn't matter how slim the chances are. Just the sheer possibility of their feared consequence is unacceptable.”

It sounds as if you have actually considered these possibilities, but dismissed them because of the remote chance of their occurring. However, I truly believe that some things never cross a person’s mind (with or without OCD). I certainly do not find the possibility of so many things you listed unacceptable. With some, it’s because I do believe 100 per cent they will never occur (OK, it may be 99.9999, but that’s good enough for me - even with OCD!). Others, where I realise there is a possibly, I can give no explanation for - I can’t say why I am unperturbed. Nor can I begin to explain why I obsess over the things I do. I feel this is the case for most of us.

I think we can over analyse. I don’t believe we will discover (in our lifetimes, at least) why a person (with or without OCD) will worry excessively over one thing, but have no concern for another (when both could quite possibly occur. In fact, paradoxically, the thing they panic about is often less likely to occur than that which they remain unconcerned). The brain is simply too complex to fathom, I believe many problems are down to ‘wring’, rather than life experiences.

I find your suggestion on how to deal with an obsession with a contaminant, when no fear of harm is linked to it, rather strange. I have never come across such a theory before. I will suggest this at the next group session I attend, to ascertain whether those who experience revulsion, rather than a fear of harm, believe it might help. I truly can’t see how it will and I know those who have been to specialist units (from our group) have never been advised to use such an approach. If you are revolted by something, how can visualising it causing harm stop the feelings of revulsion?

We have members of the forum who fit into this category, I’d be very interested to hear their views.

Mon Feb 6 2012 14:00:09 #